phoneguy

ahays

Please share! I have a MM implementation in August on CM 3.0 and would be quite interested in hearing your war stories.

.al.

__________________
Al Hays, ACE, MCSE, CCNA
Homepage: http://www.jeral.com/
Training: http://www.jeral.com/avaya-learning.html

PBXtech.info

 

OctelWarrior

I have multiple systems matching that description. The largest is 3 MASs 1 MSS supporting 10k IP stations on S8710s. Integration on that system is QSIG over E1.

What's your question?

phoneguy

Thanks for the response. Our config is E1 QSIG as well. We have not rolled our system yet into production because we have had problems with integrating the S3210 Messaging Server and also functionality/feature problems overall. My overall question is this: Has your implementation been smooth? Ours has obviously been tough. It's been one thing after another. We ultimately plan on migrating 4 Intuity's into one MM and want the S3210 in place so we can migrate the Intuity's slowly. We are using the Intuity Interface.

OctelWarrior

Your response is still quite vague so I'll segregate some of the issues you might be experiencing. Also know that issues with installations happen when something unplanned for comes up.

Issues with MM to CM E1 QSIG:
Each channel is used independantly, as opposed to DSE which each line has multiple 'appearances' and therefore transferring out from the auto attendant takes 2 channels.
After 4 rings at a station QSIG pulls the call back as unanswered. Good or bad, you decide.
(all I can think of at the moment)

Issues with migrating from Audix to MM on CM switch:
Many features specific only to Audix such as the message step in vectors, MWI for ACD Agents and various other smaller things you might not think about until the cut of a system. To my knowledge there isn't a 'so you're migrating to MM from Audix' handbook from Avaya. If there is I'd be interested in looking it over also, I probably have a few to add to it.

Issues with Intuity TUI:
You can have less than half of the total ports in a MAS once you turn on a second TUI. (that and I very much dislike the Audix TUI anyway) You said you have 5 MASs, those could peobably be cut down to 2 MASs if you were using the default TUI.

Issues with end users:
They are your clients, and hardcore audix people scare me. I am obviously Octel Biased, love the Serenade TUI and I even like the Aria interface heaps over the evil Audix TUI. But those darn old timer Audix users are sure nasty about their *T. Easiest way to win this battle is to show them that most of their cell phones have the same interface and hey, this training class is not only good forthenew system but it shows you how to use your own voicemail also.

Admins:
(Please understand that I'm only speaking from my experiences and does not reflect your situation as I don't know what it is. I guess this is more of a warning for future messaging experts of the world.)

Many of the systems I have installed for larger organizations have their own 'voicemail' person, also often rolled into a 'voicemail and PBX tech'. Previously these roles required knowledge of only that propriatery and all inclusive system. Suddenly these people are responsible for 3 windows servers, a linux machine and client apps on all of their users' PCs. More times than not when I train the admins on admining the system I spend most of my time on various windows security points and how to connect the the C$ share to transfer files between systems. ADMINISTRATION of the standalone MM (MAS with MSS) requires at least an MCP, ACS and A+ (not in that order). Admin of the MM for exchange version requires much more.

All that said, the install's only as good as you plan for. If something's being troublesome please post your specific issue and I'd be happy to give you any suggestions I have.

Blah

I keep having messages removed from here and don't mean to be crass. I have not implemented MM yet.. I have not heard much good regarding Mod Messaging from Avaya techs of customers.. The whole Windows scene is an insane step backwards for Avaya. I am hoping by 2010 Avaya will figure out the latter. The PCNs alone are more than enough to scare me, much less the Brooktrout cards and windows.. 5 servers=5 failure points.. not to mention the MS100 server, which is at least Linux. There are real people that tell me to avoid MM, some of them Avaya personnel.

PBXtech.info

 

OctelWarrior

I also have plenty of customers that are running with it just fine. Granted that it's not as stable as an Aria , Serenade or audix, It's also capable of much more.

__________________
Peronally I'd rather lose phone access than data.

ahays

Ditto .

.al.

__________________
Al Hays, ACE, MCSE, CCNA
Homepage: http://www.jeral.com/
Training: http://www.jeral.com/avaya-learning.html

Dirk

I have to disagree. Having spoken to technicians, I can honestly say we're putting off Mod Messaging until absolutely possible. There's a difference between "capability" and "reliability." I don't see how sacrificing one vs the other is better. It's a matter of each company's staff. What partners FAIL (miserably) to realize is businesses don't have STAFF to deal with "less stable" equipment despite the myriads of features any solution might offer. There is a fine line between "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.." and "Let's upgrade just to upgrade." Maybe MM will become more stable and we sincerely hope it does. From friends to Avaya techs, unless we add more staff @ our sites, MM cannot be as well-supported as Intuity. Sorry. Its features are amazing, but so are Intuity's.

Dirk

And personally I'd rather lose data access, because I already do almost monthly. Sorry, just being comical. My e-mail is down as we speak. MM would have been affected were we storing on MS Exchange.

OctelWarrior

OK, here it comes.

The misconceptions and brutal truth of running the communications and data of a large organization.

You have to have the manpower, responce and active knowledge to run it. If you want a solution that's incredibly reliable you have to pay for it and manage it. Purchasing it up front (MM high reliability) and managing it are expensive. If you want the latest and greatest, that's the cost.

The companies that I see having problems are the companies that say "I heard about this cool new thing and I want it so I can be cool too. And I want it to work just like my existing system, and I want the same people managing it the same way that they currently do." The reality of this is a little awkward. It is a different product and not everything is going to be exactly the same. Most of the issues with this customer are going to be 'well I could do this with my previous system' 'Well Mr. Customer we asked for all of your applications, have throughly investigated how you were using it, you never told us that you used it this way, here's your signature and we'll create a work around for you. If we had known this upfront we would have informed you of this or suggested an alternate solution.'

Avaya's support and implementation teams are fairly green as well. With layoffs they have let go many people that were proficient with this system and have moved others within the organization from other areas to learn by doing. The best support persons they have are the ones that listen and know when to escellate. I'll be honest, anymore the techs I see in the field are there to get it plugged in and turned on (which is still technical) but all the software support and programming is done remotely.

Many of the arguments I hear about MM are completely vague. 'A friend told me that they had problems installing it' I'm sure they did, I had issues on my first implementation also, and now that I have a few under my belt and I know who to go to for support and have enough knowledge to know when someone's blowing me smoke, I'm a little better at them.

'I hear it's not stable' Any windows server needs to be restarted every 180 days on standard because of memory leaks. Beyond that it depends, one server might shut down for any of a variety of reasons, and depending on how the solution is implemented the solution can still function. If reliability is your #1 priority they have a solution for you, you just need to pony up the bucks. If you want to talk platforms that's a whole other topic.

'it's too complicated to effeciently manage' Sure, I can see how a traditional telecom tech isn't going to know what they are doing in exchange, and I'd be reluctant to hand them those keys. There's a tremendous ammount of Avaya, general networking and microsoft knowledge that is needed to effectively manage these systems. But those people exist in today's workforce and employers are highring.

MM is a valid solution for SOME companies, usually larger. You are right, for other companies I would suggest other products.


Data's only as good as the $$ a company spends on it and the people that run it. If you want to hand me your data issue I'll have it taken care of in one business day if you pay the bill.
:D

regarding my sig, It'd be nice to relax a day without getting a phonecall, but I go crazy if I can't browse the web, email, forums, stocks...

__________________
Peronally I'd rather lose phone access than data.

OctelWarrior

The goal is not to have any SINGLE points of failure. 5 servers = 4 that can completely cease to exist and 1 can still answer the phone.

__________________
Peronally I'd rather lose phone access than data.

Dirk

My reality is simply that data has to catch up to voice regarding relability. Also, I really do not see how migrating to a Windows platform makes much sense. Windows is enough reason to avoid other companies' products.. Add a Linux server amongst those 5 other Windows servers.. and it appears, on paper, that's 6 * the systems to manage for voice mail. Let's simply hope Avaya comes to their senses--otherwise their customers will force them to do so. Avaya's management is a golden opportunity for either Partners or their competition, whichever way you look @ it.

I agree with Exchange server access, but it also works the other way around as well. Very few understand voice networks and I would not trust many "data" guys to support voice, at least not from my experience. They reboot servers during the middle of the day and just don't get it. It's unheard of for voice to fail, always has been. E-mail goes down? Well, that's just the way it is. Network for data goes down? Use your phone to call it in.. or better yet, use the voice network to support the data network during outages.. both are critical to a company, but the voice guys/gals will know what I am talking about.. when the phones go out (IF), the crisis is treated much differently than e-mail or the data network altogether (corporate LAN)... I cannot fathom bringing something as critical as voice mail onto Windows.

The issues I have heard about are:
Not all MM patches work unless you patch MS patches.. that's two sets of patches to worry about.
If a certain MM server fails, your MWI fails(?).
Brooktrout cards "lock up" and necessitate reboot of the server much more often than 100+ days.
Brooktrout cards often get problems and Avaya plays the game of "It's either Microsoft or Brooktrout" during system failures.
Voice mail networking and MSS are both Linux based. This is a positive, but the other servers are Microsoft.. this means you basically manage 7 servers for one application whereas you used to manage two (Interchange and Intuity VM).
Not as proven, yet, as MAP100. No one can argue this one. Perhaps it's not fair to judge yet.
6 local companies all have had their systems fail within the first 3 months. By "fail," I speak of MWI, message storage, changes getting wiped out (likely user error), but the most common failure I've heard about is simply IT guys rebooting the servers when problems are encountered. Or patching MS during the middle of the day, causing a reboot.

I hope we'll wait until other companies test MM. Thanks for the feedback, and I invite other opinions regarding why MM is a positive migration.. I am trying to be open-minded.

OctelWarrior

Moot point now that Intuity and Octel are discontinued products.

OS patches, Avaya has a list of tested patches. Make sure it's verified before loading that MS patch.
MWI is on a single server, usually on a single span. No redundancy in it. To be honest I hate the light on my phone now, I can see that there's something bolded in my inbox and it's already called my phone 4 times.

Brooktrout Cards - Haven't had too many issues with them, you are right, they do sometimes 'lock up' the way the drivers are controlled are a bit odd from the OS standpoint. I haven't had a battle between Avaya/Brooktrout/MS yet. Not saying it won't happen though, it's enevitable right?

Managing 7 different servers - Microsoft has a pretty GUI, both of the linux servers are web based GUIs. How much easier can they make it on standard hardware? Would you like to go back to paying $25000 for a processor?

Failing on purchase - Don't open the DOA hardware from Avaya can. I used to be in charge of inventory for a decent size Avaya shop. This is something Avaya needs to work on across the board.

__________________
Peronally I'd rather lose phone access than data.

Dirk

I am hoping Avaya somehow comes to its senses and/or other customers work the bugs out. Intuity will be supported until 2011 and maybe beyond.. it's not even @ end of sale yet. Interchange is, yes, but not Intuity..

Interestingly, what is Avaya's conversant platform nowadays? Not MAP100s..

So, AUDIX is really around until at least 2011.. if not later. I don't see a lot of Avaya's customers migrating to something that doesn't work.. Hence S8100s, IP600s, etc.. we'll see. I would bet something with Mod M drastically changed based on the number of complaints from INAAU attendees. Avaya can maybe try to ignore their customers but won't be able to ignore $$$.